You are Not Agnostic

Hey there, Internet.

I’d like to have a conversation about the problem of agnostic atheism. It seems to me that a large majority of secular atheists tend to identify strongly with the agnostic label. Many tend to view it with a certain philosophical reverence, too, as if agnosticism were some kind of a rigorous, intellectually sophisticated idea. That reputation, however, is not well deserved, and does a lot more harm than good when we perpetuate such a flimsy concept.

To put it in perspective, agnostic atheism is a lot like trying to market a beverage as containing “all natural ingredients.” It certainly feels enticing at first glance, but only as long as you don’t think about. The moment you try to interpret the claim, it quickly becomes apparent that it has no real meaning. After all, anything that contains atoms is technically “natural,” in that all atoms are supposedly part of the natural world. It is therefore trivially true for any beverage to claim all-natural ingredients, which makes it kind of pointless to even bother pointing out in the first place. Alternatively, it could hypothetically mean that no human beings were involved in the creation or assembly of its ingredients. But again, that doesn’t work either, because it’s simply not true. Unless you’re literally bottling, say, the pure, unfiltered water of the Atlantic ocean itself, then anything you do to it after the fact technically counts as “unnatural.” And even if you did, in fact, do exactly that for some reason, it would hardly be worth drinking in the first place. Just because something is natural, that doesn't automatically make it healthy. 

That’s agnosticism in a nutshell. At best, it is merely trivial and meaningless. At worst, it is just flat-out wrong, and it's kind of weird that anyone would even find it so appealing in the first place.

I realize this is going to make a lot of people upset to hear, and frankly, that’s exactly why we need to have this conversation. The philosophy of agnostic atheism is not sacred, and it's practically oozing with deep, logical flaws. Yet every time I try to explain this stuff to a typical agnostic crowd, they always seem to react with an angry defensiveness that borders on outright fanaticism. I haven’t even begun to articulate the arguments yet, and I can already feel the childish onslaughts of insults, character assassinations, and straw men. So before we get started with the actual meat of this presentation, I can’t help but feel compelled to remind everyone of how a proper philosophical analysis works.

Agnosticism, at the end of the day, is just a word. It is not an identity, it is not an ideology, and it is not a way of life. It is a label that we can either choose, or not choose, to describe ourselves with. Presumably, you might choose to describe yourself as an agnostic atheist because it reasonably articulates your personal stance on the subject of God. That's fine. If, however, such a label were to imply certain logical absurdities, then surely you would like to know about them, wouldn’t you? No one wants to run around spreading confused misinformation, and I would like to think that agnostic atheists are no exception. So if it’s all the same to you, I’d like to explain the many philosophical problems with agnostic atheism so that we can stop confusing each other with bad ideas. I promise, if you’ll just indulge me for a few moments and think honestly about the arguments, you’ll begin to see that agnostic atheism is not the rigorous philosophical concept that popular influencers would have you believe.

Right then. Think we can call get on board with that? Great. Now let’s kick things off by asking ourselves a very simple question:

What exactly does it mean to call yourself an agnostic atheist?

Well, for starters, everyone knows that word itself---agnostic---simply means "without knowledge." Thus, at first glance, It would appear that agnosticism suggests a kind of personal uncertainty. That is to say, to call yourself an agnostic atheist is to simply say that, while you may not personally believe in God's existence, you also lack the confidence to claim knowledge of that proposition. Indeed, that is exactly how many popular atheists tend to describe themselves in public spaces. Rather than just deny God's existence outright, we routinely hear atheists claiming to merely "lack belief" in His existence. Knowledge, in their view, has not been sufficiently justified, and so they practically bend over backwards to emphasize how they don't really "know for certain" that God isn't real. It would all be perfectly fine and reasonable, too, if not for one little problem. This entire premise is nothing but a gigantic lie!

It's important to understand that agnostic atheists are not just casually shrugging their shoulders and expressing a personal mental state. They'd like you to think that's what they're doing, and they sometimes even express it in those exact terms. If, however, you actually pay attention, then it quickly becomes clear that agnostic atheists are making a sweeping declaration about the fundamental limits of knowledge itself. It's a textbook example of the classic logical fallacy known as the Motte and Bailey. The motte, in this instance, is the subjective lack of confidence---I don't believe in any God's existence, but I also can't prove that fact with any certainty. If, however, you ask them to justify that view in further detail, then the agnostic will immediately transition to an indefensible Bailey---the idea that absolutely no one can know "for sure" there is no God, because the very proposition itself is fundamentally impossible to prove.

Don't believe me? It's all right there in their own, self-professed arguments. Take, for example, the famous agnostic scholar, Dr. Bart Ehrman [Ehrman, 2021],

"... agnosticism is a statement about epistemology---that is, about what a person knows. Do I know whether there is a God in the multiverse?  Nope.  I really don’t.  How could I know?  I’m just a peon on a very big planet, circling around a very big star, which is one of some 100 billion stars in this galaxy, which is only one of anywhere from 100 billion to 2 trillion galaxies in this universe, which may be only one of trillions (infinite number?) of universes. So, well, I don’t have a broad perspective on the question. So I don’t know. I’m agnostic."

In other words, the world is a really big place, and we have yet to scour every last nook and cranny of the entire physical universe (and beyond). It therefore stands to reason that, until someone finally does exactly that, then no one can say with certainty that no gods exist. Blah, blah, blah, proving a negative, Russell's teapot, etc., etc...

I cannot stress enough that Bart Ehrman is hardly alone in this kind of thinking. Arguments like his are wildly popular among secular influencers, and they seem to encompass the sum total of all philosophical justification for agnostic atheism. So let's dig a little deeper and ask ourselves right now: Is it that difficult to prove a universal negative? Must we really perform an exhaustive search of the entire multiverse itself before we can claim knowledge about non-existence?

Suppose I were to tell you that, buried somewhere deep in the vast piles of United States mail, there exists an envelope containing a perfectly rendered depiction of a square-circle. As in, literally, a Euclidean plane figure that is simultaneously a four-sided polygon of equal lengths and a smooth curve consisting of all points that are equidistant from a reference. Ask yourself right now. Does such a thing exist? Yes or no?

Obviously, the correct answer is NO. But why? How can we possibly know that? Did we personally inspect every last piece of mail throughout the entire United States Postal Service (and beyond)? Or is there perhaps some other way to arrive that such conclusions?

The answer, it turns out, lies in pure, logical deduction. The definitional properties of squares and circles are mutually incompatible. We can therefore immediately declare, with absolute logical certainty, that square-circles do not exist. We can do all of this entirely from the comfort of our own armchairs, simply by analyzing the meaning of the words themselves.

Notice that this declaration has nothing whatsoever to do with the world, per se, but everything to do with language and definitions. When I declare that no pieces of paper can accurately depict a square-circle, I'm not bragging about my personal exploration through an entire universe's worth of envelopes. Rather, what I'm really saying is that the rules of language and logic prevent me from describing any actual thing in those terms. You show me a picture of literally anything, and there is no logically consistent way for me to affirm that such a thing is both a square and a circle.

Notice also that we can even extend this kind of reasoning to empirically falsifiable claims. For example, suppose I were to tell you that there exists a magical postal service that instantly teleports all United States mail to its destination. All you have to do is twinkle your nose, rub your belly, and wish upon a star, and your letter will actually teleport to its destination, right before your very eyes. Don't believe me? Try it yourself!

Oh, what's that? You mean it didn't work as I said? Well golly! I guess that means no such service exists, don't you think? My existence claim has therefore been reasonably falsified, wouldn't you say?

So yes, my agnostic friends, we can indeed "know" that certain things don't exist, even if the universe happens to be really big. It therefore stands to reason that, if the idea of God were likewise defined by incoherent or falsifiable properties, then we can likewise "know" that no such being exists, either.

And boy howdy, is God ever so rife with all kinds of logical and empirical absurdities! Here's just a few off the top of my head:

  • The omnipotence paradox
  • The problem of evil and suffering
  • The problem of divine hiddenness
  • The problem of omniscience and free will
  • The problem of the trinity
  • The problem of necessary existence
  • The problem of substance dualism
  • The Euthyphro Dilemma
  • The problem of immaterial beings
  • The problem of supernatural beings
  • The problem of Hell

We can do this all day! Any time someone tries to talk about God in the traditional monotheistic sense, they are basically speaking gibberish. We can absolutely conclude with the highest philosophical confidence that such a God does not exist. The foundational premise of agnostic atheism is therefore completely wrong, and demonstrably so.

"But wait!" I'm sure some of you are saying. "That only disproves the existence of some gods. You still haven't disproved the existence of every conceivable God in human imagination. For all you know, there could still exist a nebulous form of higher power that possesses many approximations to the properties we associate with God. Therefore, you don't know for sure that no God exists."

Okay... That may technically be true, but it's not exactly the philosophical flex you think it is. The moment anyone resorts to this kind of argument, they have effectively conceded the whole point. We can, in fact, "know," with rigorous logical certainty, that certain variations of God are most definitely not real. And since that already includes the singular deity of classical monotheism, the debate is effectively settled. Nobody builds churches in honor to the nebulous higher powers what may or may not be hiding somewhere in the outer reaches of the Virgo galactic supercluster. They worship at the altars of El, Allah, Abba, and Yahweh, plus all of the traditional variations and derivatives thereof. So if that isn't the concept of God you're referring to in your agnostic atheism, then I honestly have no idea what the hell you're even talking about---and frankly, neither does anyone else. The very argument itself is nothing but a gigantic fallacy of equivocation and moving goal posts.

"But wait again!" I hear you saying. "Those mysterious higher powers are important to me, dammit! Unless you can decisively prove the nonexistence of every possible variation of deity to ever to arise from human imagination (and beyond), then I can't say for sure that no such entities exist. Therefore, I must still describe myself as an agnostic atheist. And frankly, if we're being honest with ourselves, so must you."

Sigh… seriously? Is that seriously the burden of proof you expect me to meet before finally elevating your belief to the status of knowledge? Because if that really is the road you want to go down, then I promise you, it will only end in madness. It all begins by asking yourself one simple question: 

Barring the usual logical inconsistencies and empirically falsifiable claims, can you name a single thing that you know does not exist?

Seriously. Anything at all. It could Santa Claus, leprechauns, vampires, or even the flying space monkeys of planet Neptune. Can you disprove the existence of any of these creatures, plus all of their logically possible variations? Yes or no?

This is a philosophical challenge that I like to call the Agnostic's Dilemma. No matter how you choose to answer, it doesn't work out well for the usual philosophy of agnostic atheism.

For instance, suppose your answer is "yes." We can indeed prove the nonexistence of certain creatures. That's great! Now please do me a favor and put together a comprehensive presentation of your analysis---say, for example, the definitive philosophical proof for the nonexistence of unicorns. I shall then take your exact argument, scribble out the word "unicorn," and then replace it with the word "God." I guarantee you, the logic will be equally valid in both cases. Therefore, by your very own standard of knowledge, we can indeed claim the same degree of certainty with respect to God.

If, however, your answer is no, then pray tell, my dear agnostic friends. What exactly does it mean to "know" anything at all? For all you know, there could exist an evil mad scientist who likes to keep brains in a special vat and subject them to a giant matrix-style simulation. For all you know, your own brain could be sitting in one of those vats right now, and your entire lived experience is nothing but an elaborate illusion. For all you know, your very own mother could be an NPC generated by a sophisticated computer algorithm. It's all technically possible, isn't it? We cannot know for sure that our entire world is nothing but a complete illusion, can we? The agnostic is therefore left with a serious problem. Until you figure out how to disprove the existence of the evil brain-in-a-vat mad scientist, you cannot claim to know anything whatsoever about the external world. As in, literally, you cannot claim to know anything about anything.

Congratulations, my wonderful agnostics friends! You officially discovered Cartesian skepticism. Well done. You're finally all caught up with the cutting edge of 17th century philosophy.

This is exactly why the philosophy of agnostic atheism grinds my gears on such a visceral level. Proponents go out of their way to present themselves as these ultra-sophisticated philosophical thinkers, yet their entire concept of epistemology is stuck 400 years in the past. At best, agnostic atheism is merely ignorant, in that there are plenty of strong arguments with which to justify a confident knowledge claim. At worst, however, it is nothing but a death spiral into outright solipsism! If you cannot disprove the existence of the evil mad scientist, then the very idea of knowledge itself loses all meaning. The very same arguments used to justify agnostic atheism apply equally well to vampires, Santa Claus, flying space monkeys, and even your very own god-damned mother. 

Bear in mind now that I'm not saying this stuff to play "gotcha" with some obtuse technicality. Rather, I'm simply applying the very standard of knowledge that agnostics themselves are proposing. It is therefore kind of strange that I have never encountered a single human being who ever insisted on qualifying themselves as an agnostic avampirist, an agnostic motherist, an agnostic a-flying-space-monky-ist, or an agnostic a-mad-science-vat-brain-ist." Yet if nobody ever actually does that, then why exactly are agnostic atheists so hell-bent on making such ferocious exceptions for God? Either it applies equally well to literally every synthetic proposition you could ever hope to make, or God is just special somehow, and agnostics are pleading in his defense.

Fortunately, there's a perfectly simple solution to this entire metaphysical debacle. All we have to do is reevaluate the meaning of knowledge. So again, let's ask ourselves that same question we asked before:

What exactly does it mean to "know" anything at all? 

More to the point, must all synthetic propositions really defeat the problem of external-world skepticism before you'll finally assign them a confident truth value? Or, just maybe, can we perhaps bend the meaning of knowledge, just a little bit, so that it actually expresses something useful?

Allow me to now introduce you to the basic philosophy of science. It all begins by embracing the doctrine of philosophical skepticism. You will never, ever, "know" anything about the external world with infallible philosophical certainty. That is an insurmountable problem, and no one is ever going to solve it. Just accept that already and get over it. That being said, it is important to remind ourselves that nobody ever uses the word "knowledge" in that kind of absolute philosophical sense. Knowledge does not have to be perfectly infallibly inerrant before we can confidently declare it as such. All it means is that, god forbid, we might just have to admit that we're going to be wrong from time to time... and that's okay!

It cannot be stressed enough that scientists are simply not interested in the assignment of arbitrary truth values to linguistic propositions. Rather, science is all about the generation of empirically predictive models. Nobody believes in the current laws physics out of respect for the capital-T "Truth." We believe them because they have a demonstrable capacity to predict the outcomes of our actions. We therefore choose to continue applying them for all future empirical predictions, and we are more than happy to stop applying them if/when something better happens to come along. That is what knowledge means in the scientific world, because it is the only conception of knowledge that actually works. We therefore "know" the second law of thermodynamics is true, just like we also "know" that, in principle, it could all hypothetically get proven wrong tomorrow. Contrary to what wannabe philosophers may tell you, these two propositions are perfectly compatible.

Notice also how this is the exact same standard of knowledge that everyone implicitly utilizes throughout their daily lives. When you look both ways to cross the street, you don't stop to wonder if that speeding bus is merely an illusory concoction of some prankster demon. You accept the mandates of your prior experience plus the empirically predictive models of high speed collisions. That is the closest thing to philosophical "knowledge" you are ever going to get in this world, so why not just bite the bullet and accept it for what it is? Pure, Gnostic knowledge!

This is how we "know" that there is no such thing as God. It's not because we have collectively scoured the furthest reaches of the multiverse (and beyond), only to turn up empty. It's because the idea of God has consistently failed to provide us with reliable empirical predictions. God therefore has no place in our predictive modeling of the natural world around us, and so we simply choose to leave Him out as a result.

Please understand that I'm not the one who created any of these philosophical absurdities with agnostic atheism. They were sitting there all along, just hiding within the idea itself. All I'm doing is pointing them out, and I'm hardly the first person to do so. Yet every time I try to have this conversation with a group of agnostics, they almost always react as if I just threatened to kick their puppies. They'll actually say insane things like, "Stop forcing your beliefs on me!" or "why are you so intolerant and judgmental?" [Reddit, 2023]---as if merely analyzing a philosophical label were the emotional equivalent of a putting a gun to their heads! It's maddening, too, because agnostic atheists are the ones routinely talking shit about Gnostics, often describing them as a bunch of arrogant, unsophisticated, loud-mouth dummy heads.

One of my favorate examples of this attitude comes from none-other than the famous Neil deGrass Tyson himself [Tyson, 2012]. When asked point blank whether or not he considers himself an atheist, he explicitly went out of his way to identify himself as agnostic. He admits openly that he doesn't believe in any God or Gods, yet he simultaneously refuses to associate with the very label that means exactly that. In his own words, Tyson doesn't like the word "atheist" because all the atheists he knows are too "active" for his liking. And since Tyson is a popular science educator, he doesn't want his message to be tainted by the psychological baggage of the dirty atheist label.

And you know what? That's perfectly fine! It's meaningful, it's consistent, it's honest, and it finally tells us the real reason why agnostics are so ferociously defensive about their label. It has nothing whatsoever to do with expressing a rigorous philosophical idea. It's all about kowtowing to the emotional sensibilities of religious fanatics. When you go out to dinner with your ultra-conservative Christian family, the last thing you want to do is get them all riled up with your non-belief. After all, in the eyes of a typical true-believing Christian, it is intrinsically confrontational to express a confident knowledge claim against their cherished beliefs. If, however, you just say something timid about merely not being convinced, then it tends to come off as a lot more non-threatening, don't you think?

Which brings us to the final reason why agnostic atheism gets under my skin. For all the philosophical pomp surrounding it, agnosticism is essentially just an act of submissive placation to religious bullies. Organized religion only ever thrives in a social environment where fanatics get to impose their beliefs onto others without challenge. The last thing they want is for a bunch of atheists make it clear to the public that theological beliefs can, in fact, be rejected with confidence. Thus, to protect their fragile egos against the evils of secular doubt, philosophers of religion simply changed the very meaning of knowledge itself. Rather than base it on empirically predictive models supported by a preponderance of hard data, they just raised the bar so high as to render everything a matter of "faith." Thus, nonexistence claims can simply by dismissed out of hand as impossible to ever prove, and all Gnostic atheists are subsequently derided as the unsophisticated philosophical plebeians that they are. It's absurd, it's manipulative, it's controlling, and for some extraordinarily confusing reason, half the atheist community routinely goes along with it!

The comedian Steven Colbert once famously joked that, "agnostics are just atheists without balls," [Colbert, 2007] and frankly, there's a lot of truth in that statement. You worked so hard to tear yourself away from a coercive religious authority, only to then embrace a label that was implicitly shaped by them to placate their sensibilities. Words mean things, and the way you use them can say a lot about the forces that control you. You would never think twice about strongly affirming the gnostic nonexistence of Santa Claus and vampires, so what exactly is compelling you to fight so hard for God?

So the next time you decide to go outside and start navigating the world, ask yourself. How many times will your decisions be influenced by the implied expectation of a powerful supernatural agent exerting its will onto your experience? How many times has this same agent ever presented itself under situations where it was logically required? How many times have you ever insisted on qualifying yourself as agnostic with respect to Santa Claus, vampires, and the existence of your own mother? Because if your answers are "never, never, and never," then congratulations! You're officially a strong, Gnostic atheist.

Welcome to the club.

References:

  • Colbert, Steven, "I am America, and So Can You," Grand Central Publishing, 1st edition (2007)
  • Ehrman, Bart, "On Being an Agnostic Atheist," The Bart Ehrman Blog (2021) [link]
  • "Why are there so many agnostics on this forum?" r/Exmormon (2023) [link]
  • Tyson, Neil DeGrass, "Neil deGrasse Tyson: Atheist or Agnostic?" Big Think (2012) [link]

25 comments:

  1. Eh Pal

    "How many times will your decisions be influenced by the implied expectation of a powerful supernatural agent exerting its will onto your experience?"
    Never - because supernatural things, by definition, must not exist, because everything that does is natural. However: I don't see any reason for gods to have to be totally supernatural. If a number of them exist, great, they're natural. But I do realise people talking about hypothetical gods tend to shift the goalposts a lot when it comes to how they're defined, since there hasn't really been a unanimous definition in the first place apart from the stereotypical monotheistic one, as well as maybe other ones in communities I haven't been involved with so far (like eastern/polytheistic ones), so I've come up with two fundamental requirements for something to be classified as a "god":
    1. It must be responsible for the existence of the local external reality I perceive.
    2. It must have a cognitive process.
    I haven't really clarified that before, but since the topic's been brought up and I wrote those criteria, I'll be sure to start doing it now.

    "How many times has this same agent ever presented itself under situations where it was logically required?"
    Never, because non-existent things are logically required in non-existent cases - which there are arguably none of (though on some levels, hypercosmologists would disagree). But as I explained earlier, I think you might be asking the wrong questions here. Regardless, at least I'm sure I can save myself on the next question:

    "How many times have you ever insisted on calling yourself agnostic with respect to Santa Claus, vampires, and the existence of your own mother?"
    On behalf of my future self - once. Of course, this doesn't seem like something you'd normally need to clarify, but just for you, I'll identify myself on the matter. I am an agnostic polyclausist avampirist automotherist. Aside from Saint Nicholas' existence, which I've accepted for the time being, I believe more in a loose organisation of different individuals acting as Santa and carrying out Santa's roles for Christmas, such as dressing up for photo-shoots, answering letters and giving anonymous gifts, although I don't really consider relatives who fulfil some of his roles, such as secretly eating the snacks and putting presents under the trees, iterations of Santa in their own right. Given a simple definition of vampires being people who have an infection that requires them to use uninfected individuals' blood for sustenance and transmits through their compulsion to bite them (I'll ignore the cuspid transformation and biodegradation halting for now), I don't believe they exist yet, though I certainly won't deny the possibility that they do or that they will (even for the two characteristics I ignored, which could be bioengineered for an evil prank once we figure out a way to achieve the latter). And I believe that I do have a biological mother who conceived and gave birth to me, though I'd definitely reconsider that if evidence suddenly showed otherwise. So no - I would indeed think twice about strongly affirming the gnostic nonexistence of Santa Claus and vampires.

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    1. "I am an agnostic polyclausist avampirist automotherist"

      Okay, then please answer the Agnostic Dilemma. What does it mean to "know" anything? All you did was fall right into the pit of solipsism and completely destroy the very concept of knowledge itself. You officially don't "know" anything any more, which is madness.

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  2. I think declarative gnostic states are rather about open-mindedness. While theists believe gods exist and atheists believe they don't, I think agnosticism is more about being open to revision and/or accepting inaccessibility of certain knowledge on a matter, while gnosticism is about being sure you'll never be proven wrong, which is a rather precarious position since there are a vast number of things you could totally be wrong about. The only things I think you can really be honestly gnostic about are consciously incorrigible subjective states, and abstract logical/mathematical concepts. You probably wouldn't mention agnosticism every time you talked about other phenomena with questionable existences, but I think it'd still be relevant when it comes to discussing theism and people's personal stance on it.

    Apart from logical contradictions, I indeed can't name a single thing that I know doesn't exist. I can only name things that I do know do exist (at least in the way I incorrigibly perceive and interpret them), and that I don't know do or don't exist. Here's an example for you. Does there exist a person in Sri Lanka who hates computers? You most likely personally don't know of any, so by your framework, you'd probably say "no." That's technically alright, but that just seems rather counterintuitive to me, and it would be to most other people as well. I know it's important to only accept knowledge of things that we know have some demonstrated or inferred state of existence or truth, but it's just not very sensible to go around declaring everything non-existent until proven existent. Now, it is pretty likely that there is in fact a Sri Lankan computer hater, given the large population and the many potential reasons there are to hate computers, so I'll do another example. What about someone from Vatican City who likes axolotls? Does someone like that exist or not? Or perhaps a virus that makes your nose swell up - is there such a thing or not? Now that I think about it, if we're going to use your binary framework, the appropriate answer would be "not to my knowledge", followed by an estimation of the plausibility of it's potential existence if you're so inclined. If you're going to say "I don't know" or any non-binary answer to the above examples, you'll either have to create a formal metric for plausibility (holy crap) and then define exactly what level it's okay to switch to strong affirmation of gnostic nonexistence at (weirdo), or concede that since you can't point to a particular place to do that, you may as well say "I don't know" to every unknown example that has possible existence.

    I have quite a few other things I wanted to talk about for some other articles and you in general, but I'll just stick to this for now. Bubye

    -A still-agnostic atheist

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    1. Did you even read this essay in its entirety? I devoted several paragraphs to the concept of "knowledge" in a pragmatic scientific sense. It is entirely self-consistent to proclaim knowledge about something while simultaneously entertaining the idea of being shown wrong after the fact.

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    2. Yep, I read it. Here I just think people aren't being pragmatic and scientific when it comes to topics like the reason for the universe's existence, because such things are fundamentally outside of the scope of science since it can only measure things that are inside of the observable universe. Setting aside the pragmatic standard of knowledge, agnostic atheism would still be valid, because there are potential explanations for the universe's existence that involve distinct individuals (as I mentioned in my definition for god qualifications) and aren't paradoxical. In fact, even the Christian God is potentially real, despite the overwhelming amount of arguments and practical evidence against Him, because the paradoxical attributes He has aren't necessary to define Him. Religious apologetics seem to completely ignore one of the most important and ironic rules of storytelling: show, don't tell. He doesn't need to be paradoxically all-powerful, omnibenevolent or unable to lie, because He isn't: He still functions as a narcissistic character of the Bible, and He wouldn't be able to do anything if He was paradoxical and couldn't exist.

      So, another thought I had: you're correct - based on the existential certainty interpretation of knowledge, me and my conscious experiences being all I truly know to exist makes me a solipsist. I'm still a pragmatist though, and pragmatism is perfectly compatible with solipsism. That's just the observation of uncertain knowledge of anything other than your incorrigible self. You can still use pragmatism to infer approximate knowledge about external reality, create a schematic understanding of it, navigate it and control your experiences. So if I'm acting based on a belief that something is practically true, then you could say I would be virtually gnostic about a state of affairs. (Funny thing though - I always make plans like I'm just going to do them, without giving any consideration to anything unexpected that could arise. Of course I'm an autist introvert with ADHD... As soon as anyone or anything gets in the way of what I'm doing, I'm completely thrown off track and end up taking potentially hours to recover. So I guess that hasn't really worked out very well for me. You can probably imagine what kind of a state my life is in :P)

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    3. I guess I use a bit of a different system, where I grant practical gnosticism to things that do seem to clearly exist or be a certain way, but never to things that don't (unless they're incoherent). As I mentioned earlier, completely denying the existence of Sri Lankan computer haters until shown otherwise is just rather silly. It kinda reminds me of senseless English conventions like the thing where answering "yes" or "no" to questions like "did you" and "didn't you" mean the same thing, even though "didn't you" should really swap the meanings of the answers, and how the expected answer to "how are you?" is "I'm good" rather than "because of the laws of physics, and all of the events that led to my conception and birth." (And yet, Christians say we are made in the image of Someone Who's tautologically defined as good, but then say we are all bad, filthy sinners. Dang.) It's because everyone just uses them that way, and not doing that causes a lot of confusion. These conventions make absolutely no sense to me, but at least my shared system of pragmatic gnosticism does.

      And you're right: gnostic states are very much a social thing. Honestly, it does just seem like a quick and convenient way to determine someone's willingness to engage in open receptive discussion. Indeed, being gnostic about something is definitely a reasonable cause for suspicion, since many people who are gnostic about something are usually wrong and fanatical, and they wouldn't change their minds even if every conceivable piece of evidence was pointing to the contrary (looking at you, Holy Spirit witnesses). And yes - as a commenter on the YouTube post pointed out, agnostic atheists don't want to be associated with the dogma that often comes with gnosticism. People love being gnostics, except when they don't want to be unreasonable or delusional. So I think it would still be very useful in that sense too. Of course, if I met a gnostic who had a reason for being that way, I could consider it and point out if there's something off about it. But generally, someone's gnostic status would serve as a useful indicator of what to expect. And in the end, like I said on the Reddit post's comment - surely it isn't, in fact, a big deal. I understand your framework of knowledge. I'm just using it a bit differently.

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    4. Just FYI, this is still a living document, and I have been making lots of changes based on feedback. So thanks for chiming in. I've modified several paragraphs since you last posted, so feel free to review from time to time. The verbiage is never set in stone until after I finally record a video on it.

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    5. Alright. I reread it and haven't noticed anything different since I last read it, so maybe the post hasn't updated yet. Also I mentioned on your YouTube community post that I posted a comment on your Reddit post about why there are so many agnostics, where I tried to explain why everyone's getting upset and defensive about it, so you can read that if you haven't done it yet.

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  3. welcome back i always thought about this topic as in true believes change behavior for example if someone claimed that a large meteorite is gonna hit your city in a particular time you can say that you believe that statement is false or true or you don't know(agnostic) but to truly know what you believe you got to look at behavior if you leave the city you believe its true if you ignore it then you believe its false and doesn't matter whether you say agnostic or gnostic. so in summary agnostics don't change their behavior so they believe its false by admission

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  4. Good point some theistic concepts are logically incoherent but even for the exceptions we can still rationally exclude their truth based on Occam's razor which state that Explanations which require fewer unjustified assumptions are more likely to be correct and we should avoid unnecessary or improbable assumptions.

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  5. Part 1 (since the stupid thing wouldn't let me post a long comment all at once:

    Thanks for this post. This topic really needs to be discussed. More and more I find myself straying away from agnostic atheism to gnostic atheism. I read this post and it has many good points. I agree that absolute infallible certainty is not needed to have knowledge and I do think many agnsotic atheists reject gnostic atheism because of the misconception that knowledge requires absolute certainty. By pointing out that it does not, the idea that no gods exist is not this obviously unreasonable idea. However, there are some arguments I'm curious to see how you would respond.

    To start, I do not think agnostic atheism depends on the belief that knowledge requires absolute certainty. Agnsotic atheists could gladly concede the point that a claim can be knowledge even if that claim could be wrong. They could still argue that we have no good reason to believe or claim to know that no gods exist. I certainly disagree with this claim if we are talking about certain conceptions of god but what about a conception of god that isn't self-contradictory such as the conception of god that is believed by deists? You could argue that there is no evidence that the god of deism exists but how can the absence of evidence be evidence of absence if we have no reason to think that the conception of god would leave evidence behind if he actually did exist?

    We don't have any evidence that extra terrestrials exist but we have no good reason to think that aliens would or even could leave evidence behind that they exist. So the absence of evidence doesn't seem to prove that aliens don't exist. The thing is, the absence of evidence of something or someone's existence tells us nothing about the existence or non-existence of that person or thing if we have no good reason to expect evidence for that person or thing. At most, the absence of evidence would only disprove the existence of certain conceptions of god ie, the ones that can or would be willing to leave evidence of their existence. If all you were claiming is that those gods don't exist, then I'd stop there but if I'm guessing correctly, your claim much stronger than this. You're not only claiming that only certain specific concepts of god are non-existence, you're claiming all of them are non-existent, right?

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    1. "I do not think agnostic atheism depends on the belief that knowledge requires absolute certainty. Agnsotic atheists could gladly concede the point that a claim can be knowledge even if that claim could be wrong."

      They'll probably say that, but their justification for agnostic atheism says otherwise. Remember that I'm basing all of this on the standard the agnostics themselves put forward.

      "I certainly disagree with this claim if we are talking about certain conceptions of god but what about a conception of god that isn't self-contradictory such as the conception of god that is believed by deists?"

      Then it's a fallacy of equivocation. You're using the word "God" wrong. By that logic, I get to define God as a banana. Why do you get to redefine what words mean, but not me?

      "You could argue that there is no evidence that the god of deism exists but how can the absence of evidence be evidence of absence if we have no reason to think that the conception of god would leave evidence behind if he actually did exist?"

      Because we DO expect there to be evidence of some kind. Lack of evidence where evidence was expected is, in and of itself, evidence against. But if you want to get really technical, then I can use the same argument for the Flying Space Monkeys of Planet Neptune and the evil Mad Scientist, which destroys the whole concept of knowledge all over again.

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  6. Part 2:

    I also have a few questions. Tell me if I am misunderstanding you. Are you arguing that we don't need to disprove all conceptions of god that are conceived or will ever be conceived in order to accept gnostic atheism because anyone labeling being as a "god" other than the god of classical theism and the pagan gods is equivocating? If so, why? Are you saying it is illegitimate to call the universe itself god, for example? I must admit, I didn't understand the part of equivocation all that well. Sorry. Hoping you could explain.

    Also, are you arguing that believing that we have to disprove any and all conceptions of god that have been conceived or will ever will ever be conceived will lead into extreme skepticism or solipsism? If so, couldn't the agnostic atheist fire back by saying there is no good reason to think that that believing that we need to disprove every conception of god before becoming a gnostic atheist entails solipcism? They could say that the claim that gods don't exist is like every other claim. In order to rationally accept it, we need to give evidence that it is true. If the claim is that there is no such thing as a god (rather than there is no such thing a specific conception of god) how else could we rationally accept such a claim unless we disprove all of the numerous conceptions of god? I don't think we can say that none of them exist because there's no evidence for it as I explained above, and not all concepts of god are self-contradictory or have attributes that are mutually contradictory, so what's left? Again, I am open to the idea of gnostic atheism and I do think its absurd for agnostic atheists to make their agnostic atheism their personality. It leads them to take it personally when you challenge their views. I just thought that if you're making a video using this script that you would keep this feedback in mind when making the final script since these are the most difficult doubts of gnostic atheism I know of. Just some suggestions. I have great reapect for your content and in any case I look forward to any new content.

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    1. "Are you arguing that we don't need to disprove all conceptions of god that are conceived or will ever be conceived in order to accept gnostic atheism because anyone labeling being as a "god" other than the god of classical theism and the pagan gods is equivocating?"

      Yes. That's literally what the word "God" means in the minds of 99% of the English-speaking world.

      "Are you saying it is illegitimate to call the universe itself god, for example? I must admit, I didn't understand the part of equivocation all that well. Sorry. Hoping you could explain."

      I define "God" as this banana. I'm now going to kill God by eating Him. Explain why I'm wrong.

      "If so, couldn't the agnostic atheist fire back by saying there is no good reason to think that that believing that we need to disprove every conception of god before becoming a gnostic atheist entails solipcism?"

      You can argue whatever you want, but it doesn't change the logic. An evil mad scientist could hypothetically create your entire lived experience in a matrix-style simulation. It's the SAME argument that agnostics are using. Prove it wrong.

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  7. You wrote an overlong polemic. I had Claude 2 summarize your post in the form of a syllogism. Here's what it claimed you said in three lines.

    Major premise: If a concept is logically incoherent or empirically falsifiable, we can know it does not exist.
    Minor premise: The concept of God is logically incoherent and empirically falsifiable in many ways.
    Conclusion: Therefore, we can know God does not exist.

    My favorite argument against God is this.
    Major premise: If God exists then he is everywhere.
    Minor premise: God is not beside me.
    Conclusion: God does not exist.

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  8. You replied to a commentor,

    I define "God" as this banana. I'm now going to kill God by eating Him. Explain why I'm wrong.

    You are neither right nor wrong.
    You as an individual can define anything the way you want . However , if you have no followers, your definition cannot be a norm, convention, therefore it has no force. If there were a group of banana believers, that fine, relevant, and just as good or bad as any other religion, but as an opinion if one person, it doesn't make it.

    As I explained in my much longer comment, which I lost because if my use as an ad blocker, I'm a convinced wittgensteinian. You seem to be an accidental wittgensteinian? Ie, I've just seen a couple of your vids from today, and subscribed, but I'd like to know, are you at least a reader of Wittgenstein?
    Anyway, I'm pecking this out on a tablet and don't want to go into my previous detail at this time.

    Thanks for accepting anonymous replies.

    I'm looking forward to more if your vids.

    One more thing, in my previous longer comment, I mentioned that Santa Claus and gid are not in the same category.

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    1. "However , if you have no followers, your definition cannot be a norm, convention, therefore it has no force. If there were a group of banana believers, that fine, relevant, and just as good or bad as any other religion, but as an opinion if one person, it doesn't make it."

      Great. You officially understand the rebuttal. I am under no obligation to debunk every obscure conception for the word "God." All I have to do is tackle the primary definition as commonly understood by the majority of the English-speaking world. If you allow yourself to get bogged down in a bunch of arbitrary definitions that hardly anyone takes seriously in the first place, then all you get is madness.

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  9. I’ve been following this article and its evolution for some time. I think it’s ready. I like the call for conversation at the start, the consistent focus on logic and linguistics, and the fact that you acknowledge the social reasons for assuming an agnostic label. Earlier versions were combative and felt alienating. Now there’s a solid mix of stern and reconciliatory language. I can’t see how it can be further improved. Well done!

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  10. Hello! It is nice to see arguments against agnosticism, because I think it is the best position in the debate of religion-atheism. Though I don’t like your aggression and how you making it seem like all agnostic atheist have the same opinion. I never knew agnosticism was somehow popular among influencers.

    Word ”god” has many meanings. But I think the definition of creator of the Universe would be the best one. ”Atheist” means the one who doesn’t believe in any god. ”Agnostic” means the one who is unsure, whether it was a god or some natural processes. Or they just might not care about god. Or they just might have no opinion on the issue. Or they think it’s impossible to know for sure. Or they just don’t want to participate in the debate. ”Agnostic Atheist/Theist” is just having preference for the corresponding side. Also, agnostics still can debate atheists, theists or both, whether there is/was a god or not.

    I like your videos and really learned a few things, thanks. Though I just can’t watch your videos on Christianity. I’m tired of their arguments and really don’t care about this religion. Will be glad to see ylir response.

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  11. You can’t prove that we’re brains in a vats, but you can’t disprove it either. Yes, you can imagine anything unfalsifiable, but there is a use for ”god” - he could have created the Universe.

    Also, USA isn’t the the country in the world. There are other, without fanatics. You should be glad that agnostics are not religious.

    Agnostic = without knowledge. Without knowledge, but willing to acquire it. This should be the default position of science. Scientists should not have any stance on any issue without any proofs. You are doing a good job by debating people on religion, but not everyone has so much useless time. IMO It is more productive to create progress and educate people to help them with common sense. How many people have you converted? Yes, you have showed many flaws in Christianity, but your viewers probably weren’t Christians already. Religious people won’t listen to your arguments, they’re brainwashed. Their values and history are tied with religion. Though not everyone’s. There are bad atheists and good theists and vice versa. I agree with you on free will. They didn’t choose their genetics or environment. IMO you’re being too toxic in this post.

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  12. Hello. Thank tou for answering. Yes, I have read the essay, though it was very hard to do. Please, could you be more respectful towards the reader and their time?

    God and the mad scientist are in outside world. Big Bang could be too. We may never know what is outside, but still be able to know things inside our world. Space monkeys and Santa Claus are inside our world, that’s why you should provide evidence for their (non)existance, otherwise no one will believe you. You mixed up the outside world (which may even be multiverse) and our world. I am not talking about Christian or other invented gods.

    You meantioned Motte and Bailey. I must admit that I have never heard about this fallacy before. But if I understood the concept behind it and your essay, then there fallacies/mistakes:
    1. Christian god (motte), philosophical god outside of our world (bailey)
    2. Impossibility of knowing about outside world implies the same for our world.

    I don’t care about god(s)’s existence, for it doesn’t affect me in any sense. Why does it bother you so much? Some agnostics just don’t give a fuck pr dpn’t have time for philosophical shenangians. Except if you adressed this essay only for dishonest agnostics.

    I want to thank you for your content. And while I have an opportunity, I want to tell you that I discovered your channel from the video about how philosophy is ”dead”. I was plesantly surprised when learned that you are a scientist, because I was really annoyed how passive philosophers are. Why haven’t they created any greater school of thought with their supposedly vast knowledge?

    I express my gratitude to you and wish you all the best.

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    1. The reason I ask if you actually read the essay is because your comments don't appear to address any specific point of fact. You're saying things as if you're disagreeing, but you're not pointing out any actual claim that I made, nor are you explaining clearly how it is wrong, nor are you explaining how you supposedly know the correct answer.

      For example:

      "Why does it bother you so much? Some agnostics just don’t give a fuck pr dpn’t have time for philosophical shenangians."

      I explained exactly why it bothers me, I explained why it should bother you too, and further explained how agnostics themselves are the ones engaging in misleading shenanigans (not me).

      "Except if you addressed this essay only for dishonest agnostics."

      now you're committing the classic "no true Scotsman" fallacy, as if there were some clear divide between "honest" agnostics, and dishonest. I gave you citations to everything I claimed, showing you examples of both prominent and ordinary atheists who engage in the classic agnostic tropes. All you did was wave your hand in dismissal, as if every single argument I have ever had with an agnostic never really happened.

      "I don’t care about god(s)’s existence, for it doesn’t affect me in any sense."

      Except you apparently care very much, otherwise you wouldn't have read this essay, nor would you have felt the compulsion to correct me on my supposed mistakes.

      While I appreciate your engagement, I'm still very confused by your comments. I sincerely have to wonder if you read the essay in its entirety. I cannot address any criticism when the criticism itself does not specifically address anything I said or implied.

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  13. You are an antitheist. Both agnostics and atheists may or may not be antitheists.

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